Is it just me, or is there some really great theology in the music recorded by The Winans?
My wife actually brought this to my attention a week or so ago, but then this weekend, I was listening to some of their music (again) and I thought “as usual, she’s so RIGHT!”
Take, for example, the song “Goodness, Mercy and Grace.” It’s almost like an academic dissertation on why God’s goodness, mercy and grace is even something to sing about. The first verse talks about how we couldn’t go anywhere or do anything without God’s goodness, mercy and grace. Then, the second verse talks about how it even extends to UNBELIEVERS–
Your mercy covers sinners, too, as they go on their daily tasks.
They don’t know that it’s really You, and they don’t even bother to ask.
But Your grace goes right on covering them ’til You bring them into the knowledge of the Truth.
By your side, You can open their eyes so that they’ll realize that it’s really You.
Seriously?! No knock against current songwriters, but how many are writing about God’s character these days from the standpoint that it is His grace that, ultimately, brings unbelievers to salvation? In fact, who is even taking time to address such topics in their songs?
Or take a look at “Redeemed” (emphasis my own):
Chorus: It was not a haphazard event, nor a secondary scheme, but it was the PLAN of the Lord to redeem.
Verse: Calvary didn’t just HAPPEN to be. It was there before the world began. He decided to die for you and I, even before Adam sinned.
WHAT?! That’s the GOSPEL set to MUSIC. Those are the types of lyrics that don’t just declare– they educate.
Again, no knock against songwriters and artists who don’t have songs like that– I believe God has called some to edify and encourage believers by reminding us of our identity and authority in Christ through song, or to simply give God-focused music that inspires and uplifts. Everyone’s got a lane and I’m not knockin’ any artists who don’t go there with their songs.
But I do wonder where the new generation of MUSICAL EDUCATORS are… those who have theologically RICH content interwoven with incredible musicality. I see a couple, but I definitely don’t see enough.
Is it just me???
Yes; it's just you!
lol at Taking a Stand! Those lyrics do educate though. If you listen at a lot of the great songwriters of our time in gospel you will notice the same thing....they really educate you and give you the Word. I'm a diverse person and I like variety so I don't limit myself to a particular style or whatever per se, but as long as the music is Christ centered and inspirational then I'm usually good with it. Check out some of Commissioned stuff or Fred Hammond, Smokie Norfu, Jonathan & Jason Nelson, D Lawrence, VaShawn Mitchell etc....& a host of other current artists and their lyrical content...you'll definitely find it in their music too.
I agree... I personally think it's the style of Marvin Winans to include such depth... If you listen to his latest Alone But Not Alone album you'll find similar songwriting styles - not mere cliches but a way of telling a story. Definitely a master of the craft!
I disagree with some of them people in your list, Vashon...lol A LOT of artists these days are just stuck on a catchy hook, and not so much depth. I get so tired of hearing songs about MY season, MY time, MY blessing, MY victory....I don't wanna sing about me-- I'd honestly rather just hear/sing about God. lol But that's just me. =)
@Denise - I agree many of the gospel artists of today do more testisfying and inspiring in their songs than teaching. That's ashame because music, like that of the Winans, offers such an opportunity to "tell the Story". Most of the more theological (storytelling) lyrics, in my opinion, are found in the contemporary Christian genre, and some quality Christian Rap I've heard.
"You're the only thing Right Left in a Wrong World... " WHAT?
The Winans are absolute masters - check out "Finders Keepers" and "Don't You Be Deceived" and also "Tomorrow," - they are absolute lyrical legends.
This is so very true. No it isn't just you who has noticed this. That's why most of the Winans musc is timeless, ad become classics. Lyrics are so important in the subject matter of ministering gospel, inpirational, and praise & worship music. Contemporary? A whole other issue. Break down that word CON = (at odds, deceive, negatives, against) TEMPORARY = ( fleeting thought, feeling, or emotion which doesn't last). While the music may have a catchy hook phrase, a killer beat, rhyme rhythmatics, and a good stry board for a video? It's just that trendy, currently popular.
In other words? If the song doesn't minister to the mind, body, and spiritual soul of humanity .... it isn't gospel. Plain & simple! It's just feel good music which may or may not have a clear apparent positive message. Excuse the typos above in last posting. :-)
Wow..that was crazy...but so true
I completely agree!!!! You can listen to any earlier Winans or Commissioned music to this day and it is well written and biblically focused. So much gospel music today is self focused, prosperity focused, or in some cases, very puzzling as to what it's even about. I listen to a wide range of genres, so I'm far from biased. What's happened in gospel is what's happening in our churches today.
Denise and Vincent echo my thoughts on the matter. What is EXTREMELY sad and scary at the same time are some of the comments in other posts that say "a song doesn't have to have the Name of Jesus constantly repeated in order for the song to be categorized as gospel". Listen to a Winans song and there's NO DOUBT about the target/object of their lyrical content: JESUS CHRIST. I also agree with the posts that mention the self-centeredness of most of today's so-called gospel. It's all about the blessing instead of the BLESSER: JESUS CHRIST. My gospel music purchasing is almost at zero except for Israel H. and I'm going to get the Wess Morgan's and Ashmont Hill CDs today.
I can't even BEGIN to tell you how much I LOVE that CD! Excellent writing...EXCELLENT!
"But I do wonder where the new generation of MUSICAL EDUCATORS are… those who have theologically RICH content interwoven with incredible musicality. I see a couple, but I definitely don’t see enough." At one point, the church was so heavy on studying the word, that we didn't focus on a personal relationship with God. Now, we're so focused on a personal relationship with God that we don't study. Many current writers don't have any deep bible knowledge to teach. That's why they can only write about their experiences. The church as a whole needs to learn how to balance the two: the book knowledge and the personal knowledge. Once that happens, I think we'll hear the balance in the music as well.
While I agree that the Winans are great song writers, and for the reasons that you've presented, I think there is room in gospel for theological teaching AND for encouragement and inspiration. Just as the Bible teaches us about Calvary and Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, it also teaches us that we are blessed, the head and not the tail etc. So I don't think we have to discount music that encourages us in order to appreciate the value of music that focuses us on the cross. The cross should be the ultimate message of the gospel (preached or sang) but a little encouragement is useful to the body as well.....just my two cents.
Um...the songs referenced in this article are in my regular rotation! Marvin Winans is one of my favorite songwriters! His theology is right, but it's balanced with the pain and joy that accompanies a true relationship with Christ. "Finders Keepers" is one of my favorite songs. That music is brilliant on many levels. I'm a student. I listen and take notes! :)
I GOT A CHANCE TO GO TO A SONG WRITING CLASS THAT PASTOR MARVIN WINANS TAUGHT THERE WERE 3 THINGS IN WRITING A SONG IF YOU WANT IT TO LAST . 1ST WAS IT MUST BE SCRIPTURE BASED,2ND IT HAS TO COME FROM EXPERIENCE, 3RD A PACIFIC TARGET AUDIENCE. SO ALL 3 THINGS COME INTO PLAY WHEN YOU ARE WRITING A SONG.
I think some people respond to posts like this one for the sake of trying to sound spiritual and (I don't know) the enjoyment of belittling other artists maybe?? LOL If we're going to go into the argument of whether using the name of Jesus makes it gospel or not, then we must remember that Bebe and Cece were NOTORIOUS for singing a lot of songs that could be used as love songs etc because they did NOT use the name "Jesus" even once in lots of their material prior to this latest offering. Now, I had no problem with it, because ultimately we knew who they were talking about, and they would make it known if it was ever challenged. However, if you're going to make a broad statement, make sure that it's based on fact. The Winans have been known for doing some of the same things that some of the posts on here are accusing other artists of....LOL And I re-emphasize: I LOVE the Winans! LOL
I Love the new Ashmont Hill cd. They were at my church a few months ago . Check out the title track "Masterpiece".,,,awsome!!!
Lyrics written by: Terence O. Hayes, Jr, from New Harvest: Going through life, hasn't been easy, many times I wanted to quit but in my own mind i had many reasons, but I had to admit that I; haven't given you the best of me, that's why i made the decision to surrender all...that's when I said, there's no limit to your power, there's no limit to your love.....your strength is perfect for me, in my weakness, you are my shield, and to protect me and to cover me in everything; thing that I do.... His Strenght is Perfect....New Harvest at www.itunes.com I agree EJ...the Winans lyrics are phenomenal. Pastor Winans has said...many artists today are not writing songs...they are just writing...catchy hooks....tell a story, tell the story of Jesus Christ, He died and set us free!
wow...I am a songwriter and everyone's comment is challenging me to go deeper, lol. I agree that there are certain artists that will give you...MEAT...as the Bible calls it. When I write, my lyrics depend on how I want to express myself at the time, so my music can be inspirational, testimonial and educational. That's why I love music...it's something for everyone. However, on a Sunday morning it's a different ball game. I’m the MofM at my church and our Praise and Worship time is all about GOD...not about us. We don't sing anything that talks about our personal experiences (what He’s done) only songs that tells the attributes of GOD (at my pastor request). We don’t sing the same songs every other Sunday so we have to find new music. Believe it or not it's hard to find Gospel Praise & Worship songs with this content.
Honestly, Amen goes right there!! You ain't preachin'.... We so busy counting the number of "Jesus" in each song, and folk are going to hell. We are fighting "inside the family" and the world is lookin' at us crazy.The spiritually deep "Jesus" counters need to write their own music, show us how "they think" it should be done.Thank God that we don't trip on that with the Word of God...evey book does not include Jesus or God. Should we throw those out? And I am still uplifted and know from whence comes my hepp!
" We don’t sing the same songs every other Sunday so we have to find new music. Believe it or not it's hard to find Gospel Praise & Worship songs with this content." And this is why we MUST have a better balance. I doubt there would be a lot of complaints about the amount of testimonial/inspirational songs out now if there were a plethora of educational & "Jesus, You da man" songs to choose from, lol.
This post highlights the IRONY of pronouns in gospel music as well as general writing/grammar, as evidenced here: "I think some people respond to posts like this one for the sake of trying to sound spiritual and (I don't know)..." And here: "we must remember that Bebe and Cece were NOTORIOUS for singing a lot of songs that could be used as love songs etc because they did NOT use the name "Jesus" even once in lots of their material..." The DANGERS of the exclusive use of pronouns is evidenced here: "...singing a lot of songs that could be used as love songs..." and here: "...because ultimately we knew who they were talking about..." Maybe I'm one of the "some people" (Ha!) because I am unashamed and unapologetic about challenging the PRONOUN GOSPEL, not to belittle, but for CLARITY. One question that I have asked REPEATEDLY has yet to be answered: HOW DO WE ULTIMATELY KNOW WHO THE SUBJECT OF THE SONG IS ABOUT? Should it be that REPLACEABLE/INTERCHANGEABLE? **My Gospelpundit signature: "Every thumb down my posts get becomes my FOOTSTOOL!" LOL!**
"it also teaches us that we are blessed, the head and not the tail etc." It doesn't teach that. There are CONDITIONS to this, all listed in Deuteronomy 28: blessings and curses. That's the DANGER in some (not all) of such "inspirational" music. It's only telling part of the story. Honestly, your response here was much more sober-minded than the post with these words "I think some people respond to posts like this one for the sake of trying to sound spiritual and (I don't know) the enjoyment of belittling other artists maybe?? LOL". I wonder if Denise was part of the "some people".... Hmmmm....
Their lyrics are a blessing, straight from the power of scriptures.
One of the greatest musical educators I see around today is Donald Lawrence.In my personal 'little' opinion, no one in THIS generation write scriptural material like He does. Take a look at His new single 'Your Righteous Mind'..which is a message on it's own talking about word-based thinking. The entire album 'The Law of Confession'...is like a sermon series on it's own. Songs like The Blessing of Abraham, The Prayer of Jabez,etc. What about His Bible Stories record...so much scriptural stuff... His lyrics might not cover redemption directly, but He speaks so much about Kingdom mindset/Kingdom living and the blessed life God has for all his Children.
Ashmont Hill is underrated. Love them.
I guess, to each its own...and that's what makes us so different...you like "liver" and I don't. Glad that we have variety that ministers to our personal tastes. My connection to a song and to my God...the "ultimate love song" is to Him....so it ministers to some people,and others it doesn't. I DONT CARE how others think of the way I minister, my relationship with God, how I sing to him , how i pray to Him, how I love Him....and some Gospel artists, im sure have the same sentiment. I love the name of Jesus, and every song that includes His name is NOT Gospel. If I believed that, I would be SO LOST (without You)...love that Bebe and CeCe!! LOL
Um. I don't like liver. Again, the danger of making assumptions when there is no information/clarity given. It's the same principle about the subject matter of a GOSPEL song. There should be no doubt/question about the subject matter. Our relationship with the Lord is personal, but we're (supposed to be) ONE BODY. We're supposed to be defenders of the SAME FAITH. And just as you say that every song that includes His Name (we're both talking about the same Lord Jesus Christ, yes? See how I asked you for specific information there!) is not gospel, true. BUT, Jay-Z, for example, whose BLASPHEMOUS song "Empire State of Mind" ("And Jesus can't save you, life starts when the church ends") is not trying to get his music put into the gospel music category, which has some VERY LOYAL gospel music buyers. Loyal to a FAULT, sometimes. In fact, there's the question: name a song that's trying to be a gospel song that does not have the name Jesus in it (or at least a direct reference to his unique nature/character). I ask again, how is one supposed to know it's a gospel song/song about the Gospel of Jesus Christ without such a reference?
Interestingly, you highlighted my minor point. My major point was that several people on this and many other gospel blogs will make a general statement like "The Winans write good Jesus based music, and I'm sick of these artists who won't say the name Jesus in their songs!", without knowing the facts....one of which is Bebe and Cece got a lot of flack for not saying "Jesus" in their songs when they were first together. Now for the minor point (LOL), eh. To each his or her own. A lot can be argued for either side. Since you don't like gospel songs that may be misinterpreted if you don't know the artists' intention, then I guess you also don't like the inverse of that either (eg. Smokie Norful covering "Run to You" by Whitney Houston)? Did you doubt who he was talking to, even though the song was originally written as a secular song??
.....(if I may add my penny to that) and the whole Bible is good. The parts about Calvary, and the parts about who we are in Christ. They go hand in hand. No need to down one to exalt the other. I agree with you Daniel.
Didn't put any doubt into the Smokie Norful song because I didn't give that song any intention. Not a fan/never have been a fan of such covers. There's probably 1 or 2 of these "covers" that tickled my ear. But that's exactly what they were: fleshly ear ticklers. No meat. Just sweet bread. Can't live off of sweets all the time. What's interesting is the assumption that Smokie was "covering" the Whitney song to make it a gospel song. Was that his intention at all? How do we know? Is it assumed that it was his intention because he's classified as a gospel singer? Again, there's great danger in these assumptions and ambiguities. The cop-out answer is "to each his or her own". The standard of musical integrity in gospel music should be maintained or at least resurrected. Per your major point: Yes, BeBe and CeCe should have gotten flack for the OVERUSE of /REPLACEMENT WITH pronouns in their music. Was the crossover success worth it? And here's a stretch: people might have been DRAWN to Christ through their music. But does this pronoun gospel music give them "stickability" to the faith? How can someone stay saved on a song called "If Anything Ever Happened To You"? Seriously? I mean, what's going to happen to the Father God? He's OMNIPOTENT!!! Orrrrrr, were they singing about something/someone other than the Lord God Almighty?
"Didn't put any doubt into the Smokie Norful song because I didn't give that song any **ATTENTION.** Look at all the footstools I'm getting! Hallelujah, Jesus!!!! Hahahahaahahahaha!!!!!! **Steps on every footstool to go higher and higher**
Um, the liver was just an analogy. I assume nothing with you, it's evident! All i can say is Wow!! You are on a mission..would love to see your picket signs and banners boycotting these record companies who put out songs you dont like that dont have enough "JESUS" quotient in them...breathe! LOL Have you communicated(written, emailed, or called) with these artists who don't fit your JESUS quotient...have you provided an example of how a song should be written with JESUS in it? Model it for us, please. I guess we have to throw out the great hymns AMAZING GRACE, LOVE LIFTED ME, and the congregational singing of GLORY, GLORY HALLELUJAH... And I am sorry, I don't listen to songs that "try to be gospel"that does not have the name Jesus in it, so someone else would have to answer your question for you.
I really think you are worried about the wrong thing (IMO), if He be lifted up, He will draw all man...that is something that you NEED NOT worry about. He doesn't need your help, He is God, all by himself. If I can be ministered to, and come to the Father by this so called "PRONOUN GOSPEL that you have proclaimed it to be", you can just bet others are, too. So rejoice!!
Honestly...Appreciate your thoughts...and they make plenty of sense... unlike those who live in a "Christian bubble" who never go outside to play. :)
All-- I'm loving the friendly dialogue and ideas. Just a friendly reminder to keep it easy... y'all keep messing with Tam and she's gonna come out with MACHINE GUNS blazing. Ain't that right, Tam??? LOL ;-)
Actually, no she wasn't, since you asked. But thanks for playing instigator Tam. LOL
Maybe we have oozies of our own EJ....LOL
I figured you didn't like the Smokie Norful cover. Thanks for answering my question...........in your own way. LOL And as for the "cop-out answer"? Not really. "To each his or her own" in this case just means that you're going to feel how you want to feel and I'm going to feel how I want to feel and you can't change that. So, if you want to dwell on "were they really talking about Jesus" everytime a gospel artist (if I'm allowed to call them that) says "him" "you" or "he", be my guest. You're gonna give yourself a headache eventually, but that's beside the point. LOL No argument from me....lol
And since I didn't answer this yet: "HOW DO WE ULTIMATELY KNOW WHO THE SUBJECT OF THE SONG IS ABOUT?" By the intent of the person writing or singing the song at the time. In my personal worship time I can sing to Jesus whatever I feel in my heart....lyrics that have already been written or ones that I make up on the spot. As long as it's to HIM in my heart, then the intent is clear between He and I. For that matter, people can get up and sing about Jesus all day and their heart ain't right...and Jesus won't even pay them any attention even though they said His name in the song. I think the importance should be less on semantics, and more on the heart of the matter. That's one answer to your question Tam. I'm sure there are others.......
I see em! You're gonna be 12 feet tall soon! LOL
Well you have to remember who "discovered" them. Pastor Andre Crouch. The godfather of contemporary christian music. Also keep in mind that before there was a Winans group, Pastor Marvin L. Winans was an ordained minister as early as the mid 70's. So everything he wrote would be bible based. There was no escaping it.
Honestly, stop it!! LOL
Tall and moving forward! ;-) without shame or apology!
"By the intent of the person writing or singing the song at the time." Honestly, you are honestly digging a proverbial hole of contradiction. And I say that with careful consideration. Not mocking. It's very dangerous to rely on somebody's intent. How can one know the intent of the person writing or singing the song at the time? How can you measure intent? How can you know what a person's intent is? How do you know if you're measuring or interpreting the intent accurately?
Wow.... just wow....when your Christian bubble bursts, I pray that the letdown doesn't do permanent damage. I know the Lord will work it out for your good.
Uh oh!!!! They spit on Jesus and yet He kept His power under control (HUMILITY) and He still blessed them so you know.... I am my Heavenly Father's child. I know my power but I keep it in check. Not even half of the story has ever been told! ;-) Thanks for looking out though! I appreciate it!
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalm 118:8) No confidence in man, including his intent.
So I'll take that as a NO: there's no song that fits your example.... So noted. I see that you conveniently skipped over the totality of the inquiry: "Name a song that's trying to be a gospel song that does not have the name Jesus in it (or at least a direct reference to his unique nature/character)." So even if the song did not include the direct name of Jesus, an accurate reference to His unique nature/character would have sufficed. However, Courtney, you were either unable or unwilling to produce a viable example. Again, so noted.
There's no contradiction in anything I said. If you want to play "count the Jesus's" in every song, and pretend that you're right, go right ahead. As I said before, TO EACH HIS OR HER OWN.
EJ, Tam will be ok, she just needs some love! LOL No weapon formed against me, her guns dont work on the righteous!! LOL
funny LOL...always got mine!
Ohhh... ok... I see what I'm dealing with here. I don't have to refer to your opinion as pretending to be right. That's what a weak-minded person does. I respect your opinion for what it is. I disagree and underscore the contradiction in your logic. However, it is what it is based on your levels of exposure and maturity. You'll understand it better by and by....
(Yawnnnnnn) Tam, you need a hug...its gonna be ok. Just funny, i can just see you or picture you on a Sunday afternoon on your "COUNT JESUS IN SONGS TIME" you listening to a song OR lookin' thru the lyric sheet for "Jesus" and you sayin' "NOPE, cant listen to that , didnt here the "J word"...doesn't minister to me..." i am over here laughing... and to your second concern...I Didn't conveniently skip over it...did it on PURPOSE! Bet your notes are full. note that one! Again, you didn't address the songs that I listed, so point made and seed planted. Love ya, your beautiful, dont ever change! Love this blog! Have a blessed one!
Ummmm, the song IF ANYTHING EVER HAPPENED TO YOU, went along with the them of the project...Speak of something you know!! In all your getting, get some understanding. I guess you didn't know the theme. It was about family and our Lord Jesus. The project was called Relationships, you can have horizontal and vertical. "Stickability"? I'm evidence and a witness to that...It's why I can call him Savior after all these years...HE (Pronoun intended) is my Savior! To each his own is correct...We will enjoy what ministers to us...all of God's children who choose to speak of His goodness in anyway they desire to contribute. Again, you like liver and I don't.
Honestly, it will hit in the middle of the nite at 3am, don't worry!!
And we must not forget that during the Winans' tenure at Qwest/Warner Brothers Records (1985-1995) (Quincy Jones' Label) The Winans music didn't have a high Jesus per minute ratio. The theology was still there, just not a lot of Jesus, Holy Ghost, Stop Sinning...etc. Lol!!!
The irony is mind-boggling.... Sigh.... How do you know that's the theme of the project? Did you interview BeBe & CeCe? Did you plagiarize the CD liner notes? Did you get a divine revelation? Is your interpretation accurate? How do you know? Could someone else hear the project and come up with the same theme as you have here? On one hand, that's the beauty of music--we each can find our own message out of it--for good. At the same time, that's the DANGER: we each can find our own message out of it--for evil. So this "to each his own" sounds good...tickles the ears, but it's the slippery slope to ambiguity...removing the Name, the nature, the character of the Lord Jesus Christ out of the picture for evil. It's VERY TROUBLING that you can so easily replace the Name of your "savior" with a pronoun. It just shouldn't be so easy. Let's see how powerful that pronoun "he" is when you get into trouble.
I have the "Relationships" CD. Enjoyed it for what it was. However, it's not in my CORE (gospel) music category. It is certainly inspirational and, Courtney, as you said, can be applicable to relationships across directions. That's a nice, New Age thought pattern. There's a place for such inspirational music. That place is NOT TO PRETEND to fit into the gospel music category. But I understand that gospel music is a BUSINESS and if these types of habitual line-stepping CDs keep selling in the gospel music category to the likes of you, Courtney, and other loyal yet bewildered gospel music fans, well, they'll keep giving you what you will buy, quality optional.
Sigh... Courtney, I'm loved on so strong, both vertically and horizontally, sometimes it's overwhelming. It's that love that allows me to cry loud and spare not and speak truth to power when there's dangerous information given. For the record, I never mentioned or used the word "guns" or "weapons" in any of my posts. So please direct your fear/threats to whom they rightfully belong, if you are capable of such discernment. The weapons of MY warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds.
Yikes! ***Holds up the sign of the cross*** Sarcasm is neither holy or healthy. I don't do pretense. No hugs or any of that from pretenders.
Not sharing one, I said you NEED one! Too funny, please don't assume!
Ok, cool...thanks for sharing.
Thanks for your thoughts and opinions. Glad you enjoyed it!
Continue the feeling the love and liver.
Selah....