I LOOOVED this interview and I think y’all are gonna really enjoy it, too. I’m chatting with Deborah Smith Pollard (aka Dr. Deb) about her book, When The Church Becomes Your Party, which discusses the changing trends in gospel music and the new expressions of the traditional Gospel message.
Let me set things up real quick for you, so you’ll know exactly why you need to lean in CLOSELY for this interview! She holds a Ph.D. in American Studies, she’s an Associate Professor at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, she has done EXTENSIVE research and writing in African-American literature and the gospel music industry. She’s a concert producer, lecturer, gospel columnist… AND she’s a Stellar Award-winning gospel announcer on Detroit’s FM 98, where she’s hosted “Strong Inspirations” on Sunday mornings for nearly 15 years!
We had waaaaay more fun on our phone conversation than I could have expected (and talked about waaay more than I could even print!). She is a true treasure to the gospel music community.
Y’all, FOR REAL, buy this book and learn what her research has uncovered– you’ll be amazed. Here’s Deborah Smith Pollard…
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EJ: Hi! First, let me thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.
DSP: Well, thank you for wanting to talk to me.
EJ: Oh, absolutely. A friend emailed me about the book a few months ago and I thought “I want to read this and I want to talk to her for GospelPundit.com,” so I really appreciate you for taking the time to do it.
I also need to take a quick minute to say THANK YOU for mentioning GospelPundit on your radio show the other week. You had listeners weighing-in on a topic I started, regarding Mary Mary’s upcoming video and the cameo appearances by mainstream artists. As you saw, we had A LOT of comments—some for it, some against it– at GospelPundit.com. How did people respond in Detroit?
DSP: The ones who called in and sent me text messages, they said that there are a lot of different ways to reach people and Mary Mary seems to want to go outside of the church walls. And if they can grab the attention of the audience by putting before them some of the popular, urban artists, as long as Mary Mary’s message isn’t being compromised, people felt that was fine.
EJ: Yeah, I hear that. And, it’s not a new debate at all, nor will it be the last, but it’s great to hear the various viewpoints on it.
Now, please tell me about this incredible and TIMELY book that you’ve written—When The Church Becomes Your Party. I’ve spoken with a few people in the industry and they’re raving about it. What’s the basic theme of your book?
DSP: The basic theme is that the new forms of gospel music, and the new forms of expressing gospel music, may seem disconcerting initially, but if you just step back and listen to the testimonies, or listen to the lyrics, you’ll see that the intention and the focus of those artists (and those who attend their concerts) tends to be the same as it’s always been. There’s the traditional message, but it’s wrapped for a new generation.
EJ: That’s awesome. So, it’s nothing new or something we need to be afraid of?
DSP: Right. Don’t be “scurrrrred.” *laughs*
EJ: *laughing* Right!
DSP: For example, in the last chapter, “Preachers In Disguise: Bringing The Holy to Hip-Hop,” I talk about the testimonies of people like Cross Movement and other artists like Kiwi (here in Detroit) or Corey Red… and I look at the things that they’ve said on record– why they do what they do. And then I print out a number of lyrics, either from their albums or you can find them online. And when you look at them, you can see why, even if it’s not your beat or your sound, it’s still a message worth supporting.
Certainly, I’m not one who embraces all kinds of rap. I love music, but if there is music that denegrades women, etcetera, that’s different. But that’s not what’s going on here with Christian rap and Holy Hip-Hop. I tell people: “get past the Timbs, get past the jeans”… *laughs*
EJ: I love that!
By the way, I’m loving the titles of these chapters—I think my favorite is “Muscle T-Shirts, Tight Jeans and Cleavage- (W)rapping the Gospel for a New Generation”. What in the world is THAT about?
DSP: That’s actually my favorite title! One of the things that I did was note that it’s not just about women. We talk a lot about women, and what they’re wearing, but I interviewed some men who said “you know, I have to watch what I wear when I perform,” and I thought “really?”
EJ: Not everyone considers that.
DSP: Right, but I thought, “well, why not?” Because if men can be swayed by what women have on, why wouldn’t women be swayed by what men have on? I look at the fact that when Kirk Franklin first came out, people were allegedly throwing their door keys, undergarments on stage…
EJ: No! *laughing*
DSP: So I go all the way back to the history of dress in the church/gospel community. Well, we have to go all the way back to the early church fathers, who wanted women in nothing clingy, had to cover their ankles (because ankles were too much of a turn on), they had to wear veils… then, later, in the Black church, that was the one place where people really COULD dress up. Coming out of slavery, we could be who we really were.
So, what happens is that we’re a more casual culture, but we also have young-thinking artists who say “I don’t want the audience to feel like we’re in this completely different world from them, that we’re unapproachable.”
Even Fred Hammond, four or five years ago, as we were doing an interview on my program, he told everyone to go home before his concert and change their clothes so that people can see that we’re approachable. So, I wanted to put the muscle t-shirts and the jeans and the cleavage, so we know that it’s across the board– things are changing.
EJ: Wow. That’s awesome because we don’t usually think of it from both sides.
DSP: Right. So, I address: what does Trin-I-Tee have on, what does Mary Mary have on, but also, what does Kirk have on, what does Donnie have on?
And I talk about the changing silhouettes, as well. Everybody isn’t skinny, but our “A-list” artists, as a rule, especially when we talk about the women– Vickie, Dorinda, Yolanda, Mary Mary… they are smaller overall than their key demographic. Again, not a good thing or a bad thing, but an observation.
EJ: This is so fascinating to me!
DSP: And, EJ, most importantly, they’re SMALLER THAN the full-figured Mahalia Jackson who, again, was building upon the popularity of the female blues singers of the time. Full-figured was fabulous back then. So, I think that part of the reason that these artists have been able to crossover is because they are glamorous. I let people decide for themselves whether it’s good or bad, but these are our artists today.
And when I go to a concert, I gotta tell you, EJ, I’ve got two hats on. I want to be there to enjoy it… *laughs*
EJ: *laughing* But you still wanna research!
DSP: *laughs* Right! I’m takin’ little pictures of what’s going on! If I see a tube top on someone in the audience, I’m taking note. I’m looking on stage and, if there’s cleavage or pants that are more fitted, I’m looking to see if the audience is murmuring, or what. How are they processing it?
EJ: Right.
DSP: At one point, we had Vickie Winans, CeCe Winans, Helen Baylor and Dottie Peoples at a concert. And Dottie Peoples was the only one who wore a dress. And I talked to my mentor in gospel radio, and she had some pretty strong words to say about everyone wearing pants. She said “if they had really been set FREE, they wouldn’t have those pants on.” Then, I called Vickie Winans, told her how much we enjoyed her and simply asked when she started feeling comfortable wearing pants. And she said “well, I didn’t start wearing pants until I was 30. But I’ve been shown a FREER way.”
EJ: WOW! Night and day.
DSP: *laughing* And I thought, here are two women who love God and love gospel music– one says “if they had been set free, they wouldn’t have pants on”; the other says “I’ve been shown a freer way.” And Vickie said that she never wears them in the sanctuary and she always checks to see where she’s going. But, I went to full-research mode to see how people have responded to the things they see on stage. That’s my favorite chapter title, too!
EJ: That’s such an interesting concept to me. While I have you, let me ask you a quick philosophical question. Do you think that the evolution of gospel music is inevitable? And let me explain why I ask: In his day, Thomas A. Dorsey was considered “radical” for throwing blues-infused chords into sacred music.
DSP: Absolutely.
EJ: And now, we call it “traditional gospel.” Same thing with Edwin Hawkins, for example. Even Kirk Franklin & God’s Property, when they did “Stomp” just over 10 years ago, were practically ostracized for having gone too far. Now, we’ve got Tye Tribbett & G.A. doing backflips and splits on stage, and the gospel community now considers THAT “the norm.” So, isn’t change bound to happen in gospel music?
DSP: Absolutely. I teach a class in gospel music and, one of the things that I tell the students is that “church people don’t live in the church.” You know? They live in the greater community. And the Black community, which is so dynamic, we create chords, we create instruments, we utilize things in new ways… I remember Pastor [Marvin] Winans saying “there is no ‘Gospel B flat chord’… it’s just B flat.”
EJ: Right!
DSP: So, he talked to my class about a commercial, I think it was for a paper towel, that worked its way into a gospel song. Twinkie Clark talked about loving Stevie Wonder her whole life, heard “Master Blaster” and decided “nobody’s doing any reggae in gospel,” and this is how ”You Brought The Sunshine” came about.
EJ: WOWWWWWWW.
DSP: People say “church people shouldn’t be mixing it,” but we are PEOPLE and just because somebody has created a “gangster” style of rap doesn’t mean that the whole speaking tradition isn’t ours. PREACHING is OURS. It’s our highest form of spoken word. And we use it in service already– the preacher gets going and the organist starts winding up to support his spoken word… it’s the same thing as rap, except they’ve added a drum to it or whatever else.
EJ: You’re blowin’ my mind!!! *laughs*
DSP: *laughing* So, whatever comes next is inevitably going to bring about changes in church music as well. Some people will embrace it, some people will say it’s Satan’s music, and all I say is “God, let me be around so I can write about it!” *laughs*
EJ: That’s incredible.
DSP: I have gone to these services, EJ, and I call them services. And I might be the only “grown person” there– the last one I went to featured Lecrae and The Ambassador. It was great… and you KNOW they’re going to do an altar call. You KNOW they’re gonna pray over those young people and challenge them about their walk in Christ.
Now, it’s not for everybody, it’s not even for all young people because some people prefer something more traditional. But for those who were THERE– young, old, in-between– they were blessed by the ministry, they knew the Word was going forth and it was just great to be a part of it!
So, that’s where we are NOW, something new is coming around the corner. And I just say that if you’re not going to embrace it, could you please maybe step aside…
EJ: Wow. Basically. *laughs*
DSP: And, wait a minute… could you PRAY that God gets the glory? That all those who are involved in whatever is new will give GOD the glory in what they’re doing. And that they won’t be pulled down by some who, without even paying attention to lyrics, or without even knowing the history, would judge it.
EJ: It’s funny, I often say that a lot of us Christians, we would’ve stopped the crucifixion if we could’ve.
DSP: *laughing*
EJ: *laughs* Because we get so stuck on making sure that we’re championing the cause for what is “right” and we have such a strong opinion about how things “have to” go, but sometimes… we just don’t know what the Lord is going to do or allow to bring about HIS plans. Y’know?
DSP: Mmm-hmm.
EJ: And, on the Mary Mary post we were talking about, somebody came on and said “well, I came to Christ through Mary Mary and Kirk Franklin.” So, if people wanna knock them for being too progressive or too out-the-box, that’s fine… but God is using them to win souls to Jesus.
You know, one of my students said that “I like Trin-I-Tee 5:7 because they showed me that I can look cute and love Jesus, too.” And maybe, for someone else, that’s not their style, but there are tons of people you can look to if that’s not your style, and you don’t have to tear them down.
EJ: So true. You’ve done a lot of research!
DSP: Well, I love how the book finally together and I’m so pleased that people have said so many kind things about it. As Pastor Winans says, “even if you don’t agree with the conclusion, you have to respect the research.”
EJ: Absolutely, because at the end of the day, we didn’t do the research, you did. And what you found is what’s out there.
Now, how can people get their HANDS on the book?
DSP: My own website, which will probably be www.deborahsmithpollard.com, will be launched soon. But in the meantime, people can go to my MySpace page for more info [click here for that], or to my publisher’s page at Wayne State University Press [click here for that].
EJ: Perfect. Well, thank you SO much for chatting with me.
DSP: I thank YOU for the opportunity. And continued success with the site!
EJ: Thanks. We’ll be in touch!
DSP: Okay.
EJ: Bye!
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Thoughts??? Anybody already read the book? Anybody gonna hurry up and GET IT?! 
Shout-out to Donna Creer for thinking of me. I had a blast.
What?! YES!!! An instant favorite. He chose a great song, TORE IT TO PIECES like a pro, was gracious and humble throughout. We like you, Clifton. You’re among my faves, no question.
