The list of artists who will perform at the 25th Annual Stellar Awards has been released:

Mary Mary
Byron Cage
Dottie Peoples
Hezekiah Walker
Shirley Caesar
Ricky Dillard & New G
Tramaine Hawkins
Richard Smallwood
Crystal Aikin
Smokie Norful
Vanessa Bell Armstrong
Edwin Hawkins
BeBe & CeCe Winans
Jonathan Slocumb
Israel Houghton
James Fortune
Walter Hawkins

For some reason, the list doesn’t mention Donald Lawrence, but it was announced elsewhere that he will be performing with the Atlanta West Pentecostal Church Choir (winner of this year’s How Sweet The Sound competition).

Should be interesting performances– glad to see some new folks on the show, like James Fortune and Crystal Aikin, as well as some faves that don’t always perform, like Tramaine Hawkins and Hezekiah Walker.

At the fear of sounding redundant, I would love to see Kierra Sheard SOMEWHERE on SOMEBODY’S show… she’s nominated for several awards, including ARTIST OF THE YEAR, for cryin’ out loud.  She can’t get a performance slot?!

As an aside– it’s interesting that, despite the fact that so many indie artists proudly let us know that they “took the ballot by storm” this year, not one of them was given a performance opportunity…

What do you guys think of the line-up?

I thoroughly enjoyed talking with Ted Winn.  In addition to being a gifted vocalist and songwriter, he’s intelligent, which always makes for fun conversation.  At a certain point, I wanted to just keep chattin’, but he’s a busy guy and had to step back into the studio where he was working.

You’ve seen Ted Winn in every form of artistry possible in our industry– from choir (Kevin Davidson & The Voices of Binghamton) to ensemble (Richard Smallwood & Vision) to duo (Ted & Sheri).  With the recent release of his anticipated solo project, Ted seems well-positioned for a long and successful career in the industry.

In our chat, Ted talks about his new project, his musical experiences and influences, his passion for empowering aspiring artists and educating current ones, and his thriving publishing venture, Veracity Entertainment.  He even weighs in on why he chose to cut off his signature locs.

I think you’ll enjoy it… here’s my talk with the impressive Ted Winn.

*     *     *

EJ:  Hey man, how are you?

TW:  I’m doing well, thank you.

EJ:  Great.  Well, thanks for taking a quick moment to chat with me.

TW:  No problem.

EJ:  Let’s get right to it.  Your debut solo project, Balance, was released in September, but it seems like rumblings about it were going on for years.

TW:  *laughing*

EJ:  Did it take some time to finish it and get it out there?

TW:  Now, that is funny.  *laughing*  You know, the first single, “God Believes In You,” I recorded it at the end of ‘07 and I went on a tour in ‘08, so I was performing it around that time.  But, it was a while… probably took a year and a half to finish the project.

EJ:  Well, regardless of when it came out, I’m glad it did.  I think it’s a really great piece of work.

TW:  Thank you.

EJ:  No problem.  Now, it’s been released on Shanachie, which is not necessarily a “gospel” label, but they’ve done three major gospel releases this year alone– yours, Vicki Yohe’s and Kim Burrell’s.  How did that relationship come about?

TW:  It came about through my publicist, Bill Carpenter, and through my radio promotions guys at that time, Kendall Duffie.  Each of them had relationships with Randall Grass, over at Shanachie, and they talked to him.  He heard the music and he said that he thought it was good, that there was a novelty about what I did… we started conversations and that’s where I ended up doing the deal.

EJ:  Cool.  Now, lemme ask you about the direction of Balance, because there’s something about the style that surprised me a bit.  I was expecting a studio joint, with some background vocals and that would just be it.  But you really kinda have a live praise & worship vibe on this project, with the band and singers being just as vital as your lead on many of the songs.  Why did you choose that route for this album?

TW:  Honestly, that is… well, most people who know me in a professional sense know me from Ted & Sheri.  That’s how they heard me, which is a duet and, obviously, the focal point was the duet.

But my background, my history, my PASSION, has always been choir music.  I started directing choirs when I was 13 and I grew up listening to Hawkins, Whitfield… the Thompson Community Singers is my favorite choir.  My influences are Ed[win] & Walter Hawkins, Andraé Crouch, Richard [Smallwood] and Donald Lawrence.  Those 5 people helped to shape my musical tastes.

EJ:  Yeah.

TW:  So,  I think that the BGV part being so intricate– and it’s great that you paid attention to that, because that was intentional– I kinda wanted a group, but was told “don’t do that.” *laughing*

EJ:  *laughs*

TW:  But I always wanted a choir or group– I love that whole thing… sharing the stage or the choir stand with another group of singers.  I think it makes for a great opportunity to share in ministry with somebody else.  So, that’s why I went in that direction and this project, sonically and stylistically, is really who “Ted Winn” is.

EJ:  And do you think you’ll ever go that route?  You know, with a group of singers that are set as the people who sing with Ted Winn and kinda have that vibe?

TW:  You know, I definitely won’t rule it out.  It’s something I’ve thought about and would love to be able to create that sort of platform, not just for me, but for other people.

I think there are so many singers out there who are great, but need mentoring.  They need someone to help them develop in terms of their talent and in terms of the focus of ministry, what’s important, how you nuance what you do and say as you move through this industry.  I would love to be a conduit for that for people, so it’s definitely a possibility.

EJ:  Sure.  I wanna ask you– and I hope you understand it and that the readers understand it– I’ll ask the question, then expound.  The question is “how did you make it out of Memphis?”

TW:  *laughs*

EJ:  *laughing* And when I say that, I mean that there are some AMAZING singers in Memphis.  I’ve been over there a few times in the past couple of months and my wife, who’s originally from there, will point out people that she used to sing with years ago.  And these people can SING.  Almost everyone.

But it’s becoming clear to me that, unfortunately, not everyone gets to “get out.”  So, I’m curious to know how people like you, like Sheri, people like Kevin Davidson or Darrel Petties, how you managed to not get caught up in what seems like a cycle there… how did you manage to stand out among all of the great talent there?

TW:  I’ll answer that in two ways.  One– probably the main thing was the push that Sheri and I, in particular, had from O’landa Draper.  Because he was the first breakout artist in gospel to really do what he did, it inspired us (and we aspired) to do something bigger than what we saw.  It was stuff like going to GMWA at that time, maybe mid to late-90’s, and singing.  He introduced us to Donald Lawrence, we started meeting people.  And as we started to travel outside of the city, we started to realize “wow… there’s a whole world of people out here and things to do.”

Unfortunately, and I want to say this in a way that’s not offensive, but there seems to be a mentality in Memphis that is pervasive, and it’s one that causes people, in some instances, to not maximize their potential.

EJ:  Yeah.  And I’ve heard that from people there.

TW:  And I think it has all to do with exposure.  It’s the headquarters of the Church Of God In Christ, it’s a very churched city.  Church is everything.  EVERYBODY goes to church.  And I think that it becomes some people’s microcosm– that’s it.  They don’t go outside of that.

And so I think that, for those of us who were able to make it to a larger stage, or have a larger platform, it had all to do with people outside of Memphis who saw something in us and pushed us to the next place.

Like I said, with Richard Smallwood.  I was in Memphis and O’landa Draper introduced me to Richard.  I moved to DC after I left Morehouse College, he started asking me to sing with Vision, and it went on from there.  Donald met Sheri, heard Sheri sing, asked her to start singing with Tri-City.

So, it really was people and players outside of the city that gave us the platform.

EJ:  Right.

TW:  Now, Memphis has some amazing talent.  And I endeavor to do some things there.  I was talking to some people recently about doing some type of symposium because I want to go back and do some things that give people an opportunity.

EJ:  That would be awesome.

TW:  You know, O’landa Draper used to have a music lover’s conference.  And he would bring in people– that’s where we FIRST heard Melonie Daniels, that’s where I met Richard Smallwood.  He would bring all these people in– Kim Burrell– and they would pour into those of us in the city.  And it would be great if we could get that to happen again.  There’s a talent there, but it needs to be nurtured and corraled.

EJ:  Absolutely.  It’s funny– you and Sheri aren’t recording together right now, but both of you created albums that speak life to, and encourage, your listeners.  Is that a personal passion of yours, or do you just feel that the gospel industry is in that season right now?

TW:  It’s definitely a personal passion of mine.  I have always aspired to push people into a better place.  My friends tell me that I always try to fix everybody. *laughing*

And I think that there’s an anointing that I have that lends itself to healing and to restoration, to give people hope and, hopefully, change their perspective about themselves.  That has a lot to do with why the content of my record is what it is, and moves people to what I feel is a more balanced position.

EJ:  Right.

TW:  And it’s not always easy to do that.  Sometimes you have your own days, you know, where you’re not feeling it.  You get bogged down dealing with the dynamics of the industry– radio, retail and awards shows and all that’s going on.  And you have to stop, take a reprieve, and say “okay, Lord, I need you to refuel me because it’s getting a little crazy.”

But, it’s definitely a passion of mine to see people have peace.  So I want to do whatever I can to help facilitate that.

EJ:  Amen.  That’s a good segue to my next question… what would you say has been the hardest part of launching your solo artistry?  And I don’t mean logistically, I mean at a deeper level.  Was there fear in striking out on your own, or has there been judgment and criticism that you’ve had to rise above… things like that?  What’s been tough for Ted to do?

TW:  It definitely was, first and foremost, the phobia of going it alone.  And it took me a year to even decide to do a solo project.  And it was after I felt like God gave me the title, Balance, and I started writing songs that I halfway liked, after trashing many many songs. *laughing*

EJ: *laughs*

TW:  That was when I said “ok, this is what I’m supposed to do.”  So, it was dealing with that.  And, of course, dealing with the obvious… some of the Ted & Sheri fans’ immediate response was “umm… we want a Ted & Sheri record.”  So, you’re also thinking about how people are going to receive solo projects when they liked what they had with the group.

EJ:  Absolutely.

TW:  So, that was definitely the biggest challenge to overcome– to even get to the place to decide if I wanted to do one.

EJ:  While I have you, I wanna know about Ted, the businessman.  We’ve got several mutual friends and they all sing your praises as an astute businessman.  What do you do, business-wise, in the industry and how do you juggle between that work and your artistry?

TW:  Wow.  Well, I have a company called Veracity Entertainment.  And it’s a publishing administration company that I started almost 3 1/2 years ago.  I started out with one client– Patrick Love, a songwriter.  We represent songwriters, we collect their money, we do their licenses, we argue their splits, the whole nine.

And it was through me having some bad situations in the past that I, basically, became a student of the business.  I started to pick the brains of my attorneys and going to lunch with them.  I had a lot of conversations with Donald Lawrence and with another record executive, Jimmy Maynes, who was at Jive [Records] at the time.  They all were saying “this is something that you can do.”

So, it started with Patrick Love, then, by word of mouth, went to two writers, then three to four to five, and now I’m at about 30.

EJ:  WOW.

TW:  And I represent writers on T-Pain’s latest album– one of my writers did 11 songs on the last T-Pain record… Akon, Ciara, two of my writers just collaborated on the new Toni Braxton single, “Yesterday.”  I was representing Elvin Ross, who scored Madea’s Family Reunion and did the cues for House of Payne… the list goes on and on.  It’s been an amazing run as it relates to that piece.

It’s a very interesting situation and God blessed me to do some amazing things… I was even able to do my deal with David Balfour, who did the T-Pain tracks, in such a way that I now own publishing on those T-Pain records.

EJ:  Wow, Ted!

TW:  And that’s part of the reason that I was able to do my own record and pay for it.  I do believe that the wealth of the world– I don’t say “wicked,” but people can say it how they want to…

EJ:  *laughing*

TW:  The wealth of the world, or of the world system, is laid up for the just.  And I think that means, at least to me, that there’s a system out there in place– we don’t live on it, we live on a Kingdom system– but we definitely can, if we learn it and are able to walk through it, we can definitely benefit from it.  I believe that God wants us to have influence in EVERY area of the world, so that we can influence things in a better direction.

So, it’s great for me to be able to have conversations with the top executives in the music business.  Sometimes I’m sitting talking to these people and I’m like “man, here I am, the dude from Memphis with nobody musical in my family– nobody sings, nobody plays, nothing.”  And to go from that, to Voices of Binghamton, to Ted & Sheri, to Vision, then to be sitting in the office across from people who orchestrate the careers of people who sell MILLIONS of records… it’s phenomenal.

EJ:  It absolutely is.  Absolutely.

TW:  I didn’t mean to give you such a long answer. *laughing*  But that’s Veracity, man.  That’s my baby, that’s my passion right there.  And I love what I do.

EJ:  I’m glad that you have something else because one thing that bugs me– and it’s probably because I love this industry and the artists in it– I hate to see when artists get older and have to struggle.  Here we are, singing your songs at the midnight musicals, and they’re on the compilation albums, and we call it one of the greatest songs of the decade, but the writers and artists can’t pay their medical bills when they have an issue, or what have you.

TW:  Right.

EJ:  So, it’s great to see artists who are not so wrapped up in the music of it that they don’t take time to understand the business of it.

TW:  Yeah.  And I feel it incumbent upon people like myself to not only get this money to help Ted Winn, but also to equip other people.  There have been instances where I’ve found money for Richard Smallwood, for Kim Burrell, Edwin Hawkins… I just found some money for the Clark Sisters and talked to Karen last week about it.

It is my mission to help empower our people and to spread the knowledge and information.  We have so much value in the gospel music industry, we just have to get the information to learn how to make it lucrative for us.

EJ:  Absolutely.

TW:  It’s part of my frustration when I go to different conferences… we have seminars on how to lead worship and 10 ways to grow your praise team… I think that’s fine.  But I really wish I could go to some of these conferences and teach people about handling their songs and their publishing.

EJ:  Sure.

TW:  And, I mean, I never even get invited to them.

EJ:  *laughing*

TW:  But here I am representing people who sell millions of albums.  *laughing*  Maybe people don’t know that I do it, or whatever.  But I’m not asking people to pay me or anything– I just want to be able to go in and empower the Kingdom with this information because I think that they really need it.

EJ:  I’m with you.  Absolutely.  Okay, last question.  I know tons of folks who have, or had, locs.  And they tend to get annoyed when people ask “when are you gonna cut them,” or, after they’ve done so, “why did you cut them,” but please indulge me cuz I think it’s the type of thing I’m supposed to ask in an interview.

TW: *laughing*

EJ:  What made you cut off your locs and what has the response been from folks?

TW:  Well, I grew my locs because I wanted to make a statement– that we can appreciate the natural texture of our hair, as people of color, the way that it grows.  When it came time to do the music, there were no other mainstream gospel artists that had locs.  There was no Stephen Hurd, Tye Tribbett, whoever else has them right now.  No one was doing it.

And I remember I was at [the] AIM [conference] with Sheri.  And we did “Come Ye Disconsolate” and the audience response was lukewarm.  And I’ll never forget it… I talked to Donnie McClurkin about it afterwards and he told me “you know, it’s gonna take people about a year to get used to your HAIR.”

EJ:  Really?

TW:  He said “after they get used to that, and realize that you can still be effective, they’ll be cool.”  And he was about right.  And I think that it kinda broke the stereotype of what people thought it was going to be.

One time, Sheri and I sang at a church and the pastor said “I’m gonna be honest, when you guys got up, I saw you with your hair and I thought ‘are they going to rap’?”  He thought I was going to rap and she was going to sing.  But he said “instead, you got up and you sang.  And not only did you sing, you sang a hymn.”  You cannot base that type of thing on aesthetics.

EJ:  Right.

TW:  So, I grew my locs and I cut them in June of this year.  It was 10 years– a decade, or an era– and I felt like, transitioning into a solo artist, and in this next phase of my life, even as a business person, I just felt like it was time for the next phase for me.

So, I ended it.  And it was a lot.  It took me a year to get prepped to cut my locs.  And the day I cut ‘em, I cried. *chuckles*

EJ:  Aww…

TW:  I did.  I had a moment… definitely had a moment because there were so many experiences I had with that hair, so many places I went around the world.  It had become a part of my I.D.  People knew me as the guy with the locs.

But, that’s why I cut them.  I’m appreciative of that time I had with them and I feel like, as I’ve heard from emails, I encouraged other people to loc their hair, you know?  People said that they can appreciate it because it made them not feel like an outcast or a misfit for having a similar type of expression.  But yeah, that phase is over for me now.

EJ:  That’s a lot deeper than I thought it was gonna be… I thought you might just say “it was hot” or something. *laughing*

TW: *laughs* Nah… it is for some people, but not for me.  I usually don’t do anything on a superficial level.  I’m too psychoanalytical of a person.

EJ:  I hear you, man.  Well, that’s about it from me.  I really appreciate you for chatting with me.

TW:  Thank you, man.  I really enjoyed the interview.

EJ:  No doubt.  And I’ll talk with you soon.

TW:  Okay.

EJ:  Bye.

*     *     *

And that was my chat with Ted.  He’s a really cool dude and he seems to mean what he says.  He’s passionate about the people of God.

AND, it helps that his album is REALLY REALLY good.  If you didn’t see my review of it, click here to check it out.

In the meantime, lemme know what you thought of the interview!

I don’t know how many people outside of Chicago were aware of the PBS special Going Home To Gospel, hosted by Patti LaBelle, back in 1991 or so.  It was taped at Chicago’s historic Quinn Chapel and remains one of my favorite television concert specials EVER.

It featured music from Patti LaBelle, Albertina Walker, Ricky Dillard & New G, The Barrett Sisters, DeLeon (back when she was a teenager), Edwin Hawkins, The Mighty Clouds of Joy, Calvin Bridges (where’s HE these days?), and many more.

One of my absolute favorite performances from the show was Patti LaBelle’s rendition of “He Cares” by Milton Brunson & The Thompson Community Singers.  PLEASE watch it here:

CRAAAAAAAAAAAAZY, right?!

Who saw it???

The show opened with Kierra Sheard singing “Invisible” which, to me, was the PERFECT song for the Dove Awards.  I wish she had sung a little bit more of it, but the part that she DID sing, she sang her behind off!

She then introduced Mary Mary, who sang “Get Up.”  We knew that, cuz it’s what they were nominated for, but I was disappointed cuz I wanted them to re-introduce Kierra to do a little of “God In Me”.  Instead, it just kinda ended.  The Marys’ performance wasn’t their best, but there was nothing necessarily wrong with it either… it just kinda WAS.  But, no prob.  Glad y’all could open the dern thing!

Jonathan Nelson performed as part of the “New Artist of the Year” medley.  I was glad to see him on the show cuz I think he’s really good.  The background folk were crowded around two mics and their sound wasn’t stellar, but the song is still a fave of mine.

The musical finale featured Edwin Hawkins, Donnie McClurkin, Mandisa and Melinda Watts singing “Oh Happy Day,” trading turns RIPPING the mic to shreds.  Edwin was classic, Donnie soared as usual, Mandisa reminded everyone why we liked her to begin with, and Melinda began the process of staking her claim as a new artist to watch.  Good job, y’all!

The only gospel artist to win on-air was Mary Mary for Urban Recorded Song of the Year for “Get Up.”  Some awards were given during the pre-show, though, so visit http://www.doveawards.com/ a full list of winners.

Gospel Music Channel is gonna air encore performances throughout this weekend, so make sure you catch it.  It’s great to note the differences between the Stellars and the Doves… which begs the question:

Which did you enjoy watching more: The Doves or The Stellars?  And why?  Consider the performances, the artists, your familiarity with one over the other, the production quality, the money invested in each show… And for those of you who didn’t watch, but could have, why did choose NOT to?  Shout-out to my dude, Evin, for the nudge to ask y’all about this topic.

Talk to me!

I LOOOVED this interview and I think y’all are gonna really enjoy it, too.  I’m chatting with Deborah Smith Pollard (aka Dr. Deb) about her book, When The Church Becomes Your Party, which discusses the changing trends in gospel music and the new expressions of the traditional Gospel message.

Let me set things up real quick for you, so you’ll know exactly why you need to lean in CLOSELY for this interview!  She holds a Ph.D. in American Studies, she’s an Associate Professor at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, she has done EXTENSIVE research and writing in African-American literature and the gospel music industry.  She’s a concert producer, lecturer, gospel columnist… AND she’s a Stellar Award-winning gospel announcer on Detroit’s FM 98, where she’s hosted “Strong Inspirations” on Sunday mornings for nearly 15 years!

We had waaaaay more fun on our phone conversation than I could have expected (and talked about waaay more than I could even print!).  She is a true treasure to the gospel music community.

Y’all, FOR REAL, buy this book and learn what her research has uncovered– you’ll be amazed.  Here’s Deborah Smith Pollard…

*     *     *

EJ:  Hi!  First, let me thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.

DSP:  Well, thank you for wanting to talk to me.

EJ:  Oh, absolutely.  A friend emailed me about the book a few months ago and I thought “I want to read this and I want to talk to her for GospelPundit.com,” so I really appreciate you for taking the time to do it.

I also need to take a quick minute to say THANK YOU for mentioning GospelPundit on your radio show the other week.  You had listeners weighing-in on a topic I started, regarding Mary Mary’s upcoming video and the cameo appearances by mainstream artists.  As you saw, we had A LOT of comments—some for it, some against it– at GospelPundit.com.  How did people respond in Detroit?

DSP:  The ones who called in and sent me text messages, they said that there are a lot of different ways to reach people and Mary Mary seems to want to go outside of the church walls.  And if they can grab the attention of the audience by putting before them some of the popular, urban artists, as long as Mary Mary’s message isn’t being compromised, people felt that was fine.

EJ:  Yeah, I hear that.  And, it’s not a new debate at all, nor will it be the last, but it’s great to hear the various viewpoints on it.

Now, please tell me about this incredible and TIMELY book that you’ve written—When The Church Becomes Your Party.  I’ve spoken with a few people in the industry and they’re raving about it.  What’s the basic theme of your book?

DSP:  The basic theme is that the new forms of gospel music, and the new forms of expressing gospel music, may seem disconcerting initially, but if you just step back and listen to the testimonies, or listen to the lyrics, you’ll see that the intention and the focus of those artists (and those who attend their concerts) tends to be the same as it’s always been.  There’s the traditional message, but it’s wrapped for a new generation.

EJ:  That’s awesome.  So, it’s nothing new or something we need to be afraid of?

DSP:  Right.  Don’t be “scurrrrred.”  *laughs*

EJ:  *laughing*  Right!

DSP:  For example, in the last chapter, “Preachers In Disguise: Bringing The Holy to Hip-Hop,” I talk about the testimonies of people like Cross Movement and other artists like Kiwi (here in Detroit) or Corey Red… and I look at the things that they’ve said on record– why they do what they do.  And then I print out a number of lyrics, either from their albums or you can find them online.  And when you look at them, you can see why, even if it’s not your beat or your sound, it’s still a message worth supporting.

Certainly, I’m not one who embraces all kinds of rap.  I love music, but if there is music that denegrades women, etcetera, that’s different.  But that’s not what’s going on here with Christian rap and Holy Hip-Hop.  I tell people: “get past the Timbs, get past the jeans”… *laughs*

EJ:  I love that!

By the way, I’m loving the titles of these chapters—I think my favorite is “Muscle T-Shirts, Tight Jeans and Cleavage- (W)rapping the Gospel for a New Generation”.  What in the world is THAT about?

DSP:  That’s actually my favorite title!  One of the things that I did was note that it’s not just about women.  We talk a lot about women, and what they’re wearing, but I interviewed some men who said “you know, I have to watch what I wear when I perform,” and I thought “really?”

EJ:  Not everyone considers that.

DSP:  Right, but I thought, “well, why not?”  Because if men can be swayed by what women have on, why wouldn’t women be swayed by what men have on?  I look at the fact that when Kirk Franklin first came out, people were allegedly throwing their door keys, undergarments on stage…

EJ:  No! *laughing*

DSP:  So I go all the way back to the history of dress in the church/gospel community.  Well, we have to go all the way back to the early church fathers, who wanted women in nothing clingy, had to cover their ankles (because ankles were too much of a turn on), they had to wear veils… then, later, in the Black church, that was the one place where people really COULD dress up.  Coming out of slavery, we could be who we really were.

So, what happens is that we’re a more casual culture, but we also have young-thinking artists who say “I don’t want the audience to feel like we’re in this completely different world from them, that we’re unapproachable.”

Even Fred Hammond, four or five years ago, as we were doing an interview on my program, he told everyone to go home before his concert and change their clothes so that people can see that we’re approachable.  So, I wanted to put the muscle t-shirts and the jeans and the cleavage, so we know that it’s across the board– things are changing.

EJ:  Wow.  That’s awesome because we don’t usually think of it from both sides.

DSP:  Right.  So, I address: what does Trin-I-Tee have on, what does Mary Mary have on, but also, what does Kirk have on, what does Donnie have on?

And I talk about the changing silhouettes, as well.  Everybody isn’t skinny, but our “A-list” artists, as a rule, especially when we talk about the women– Vickie, Dorinda, Yolanda, Mary Mary… they are smaller overall than their key demographic.  Again, not a good thing or a bad thing, but an observation.

EJ:  This is so fascinating to me!

DSP:  And, EJ, most importantly, they’re SMALLER THAN the full-figured Mahalia Jackson who, again, was building upon the popularity of the female blues singers of the time.  Full-figured was fabulous back then.  So, I think that part of the reason that these artists have been able to crossover is because they are glamorous.  I let people decide for themselves whether it’s good or bad, but these are our artists today.

And when I go to a concert, I gotta tell you, EJ, I’ve got two hats on.  I want to be there to enjoy it… *laughs*

EJ:  *laughing*  But you still wanna research!

DSP:  *laughs* Right!  I’m takin’ little pictures of what’s going on!  If I see a tube top on someone in the audience, I’m taking note.  I’m looking on stage and, if there’s cleavage or pants that are more fitted, I’m looking to see if the audience is murmuring, or what.  How are they processing it?

EJ:  Right.

DSP:  At one point, we had Vickie Winans, CeCe Winans, Helen Baylor and Dottie Peoples at a concert.  And Dottie Peoples was the only one who wore a dress.  And I talked to my mentor in gospel radio, and she had some pretty strong words to say about everyone wearing pants.  She said “if they had really been set FREE, they wouldn’t have those pants on.”  Then, I called Vickie Winans, told her how much we enjoyed her and simply asked when she started feeling comfortable wearing pants.  And she said “well, I didn’t start wearing pants until I was 30.  But I’ve been shown a FREER way.”

EJ:  WOW!  Night and day.

DSP:  *laughing* And I thought, here are two women who love God and love gospel music– one says “if they had been set free, they wouldn’t have pants on”; the other says “I’ve been shown a freer way.”  And Vickie said that she never wears them in the sanctuary and she always checks to see where she’s going.  But, I went to full-research mode to see how people have responded to the things they see on stage.  That’s my favorite chapter title, too!

EJ:  That’s such an interesting concept to me.  While I have you, let me ask you a quick philosophical question.  Do you think that the evolution of gospel music is inevitable?  And let me explain why I ask:  In his day, Thomas A. Dorsey was considered “radical” for throwing blues-infused chords into sacred music.

DSP:  Absolutely.

EJ:  And now, we call it “traditional gospel.”  Same thing with Edwin Hawkins, for example.  Even Kirk Franklin & God’s Property, when they did “Stomp” just over 10 years ago, were practically ostracized for having gone too far.  Now, we’ve got Tye Tribbett & G.A. doing backflips and splits on stage, and the gospel community now considers THAT “the norm.”  So, isn’t change bound to happen in gospel music?

DSP:  Absolutely.  I teach a class in gospel music and, one of the things that I tell the students is that “church people don’t live in the church.”  You know?  They live in the greater community.  And the Black community, which is so dynamic, we create chords, we create instruments, we utilize things in new ways… I remember Pastor [Marvin] Winans saying “there is no ‘Gospel B flat chord’… it’s just B flat.”

EJ:  Right!

DSP:  So, he talked to my class about a commercial, I think it was for a paper towel, that worked its way into a gospel song.  Twinkie Clark talked about loving Stevie Wonder her whole life, heard “Master Blaster” and decided “nobody’s doing any reggae in gospel,” and this is how ”You Brought The Sunshine” came about.

EJ:  WOWWWWWWW.

DSP:  People say “church people shouldn’t be mixing it,” but we are PEOPLE and just because somebody has created a “gangster” style of rap doesn’t mean that the whole speaking tradition isn’t ours.  PREACHING is OURS.  It’s our highest form of spoken word.  And we use it in service already– the preacher gets going and the organist starts winding up to support his spoken word… it’s the same thing as rap, except they’ve added a drum to it or whatever else.

EJ:  You’re blowin’ my mind!!! *laughs*

DSP:  *laughing*  So, whatever comes next is inevitably going to bring about changes in church music as well.  Some people will embrace it, some people will say it’s Satan’s music, and all I say is “God, let me be around so I can write about it!” *laughs*

EJ:  That’s incredible.

DSP:  I have gone to these services, EJ, and I call them services.  And I might be the only “grown person” there– the last one I went to featured Lecrae and The Ambassador.  It was great… and you KNOW they’re going to do an altar call.  You KNOW they’re gonna pray over those young people and challenge them about their walk in Christ.

Now, it’s not for everybody, it’s not even for all young people because some people prefer something more traditional.  But for those who were THERE– young, old, in-between– they were blessed by the ministry, they knew the Word was going forth and it was just great to be a part of it!

So, that’s where we are NOW, something new is coming around the corner.  And I just say that if you’re not going to embrace it, could you please maybe step aside…

EJ:  Wow.  Basically. *laughs*

DSP:  And, wait a minute… could you PRAY that God gets the glory?  That all those who are involved in whatever is new will give GOD the glory in what they’re doing.  And that they won’t be pulled down by some who, without even paying attention to lyrics, or without even knowing the history, would judge it.

EJ:  It’s funny, I often say that a lot of us Christians, we would’ve stopped the crucifixion if we could’ve.

DSP:  *laughing*

EJ:  *laughs* Because we get so stuck on making sure that we’re championing the cause for what is “right” and we have such a strong opinion about how things “have to” go, but sometimes… we just don’t know what the Lord is going to do or allow to bring about HIS plans.  Y’know?

DSP:  Mmm-hmm.

EJ:  And, on the Mary Mary post we were talking about, somebody came on and said “well, I came to Christ through Mary Mary and Kirk Franklin.”  So, if people wanna knock them for being too progressive or too out-the-box, that’s fine… but God is using them to win souls to Jesus.

You know, one of my students said that “I like Trin-I-Tee 5:7 because they showed me that I can look cute and love Jesus, too.”  And maybe, for someone else, that’s not their style, but there are tons of people you can look to if that’s not your style, and you don’t have to tear them down.

EJ:  So true.  You’ve done a lot of research!

DSP:  Well, I love how the book finally together and I’m so pleased that people have said so many kind things about it.  As Pastor Winans says, “even if you don’t agree with the conclusion, you have to respect the research.”

EJ:  Absolutely, because at the end of the day, we didn’t do the research, you did.  And what you found is what’s out there.

Now, how can people get their HANDS on the book?

DSP:  My own website, which will probably be www.deborahsmithpollard.com, will be launched soon.  But in the meantime, people can go to my MySpace page for more info [click here for that], or to my publisher’s page at Wayne State University Press [click here for that].

EJ:  Perfect.  Well, thank you SO much for chatting with me.

DSP:  I thank YOU for the opportunity.  And continued success with the site!

EJ:  Thanks.  We’ll be in touch!

DSP:  Okay.

EJ:  Bye!

*     *     *

Thoughts???  Anybody already read the book?  Anybody gonna hurry up and GET IT?!

The Hawkins arrangement.  It’s like one of my favorite gospel songs ever.  It’s just SO great to me, from the organ licks to the ruggedness and rawness with which a choir MUST sing it.  Only problem:  I can’t find the original recording of it ANYWHERE!

I think Edwin Hawkins and a Love & Arts Seminar choir recorded it decades ago, and I know Walter Hawkins did a snippet of the vamp on the opening track of Love Alive IV, but if anyone has the original, lemme know!

In the meantime, enjoy a YouTube clip of somebody’s back-in-the-day church choir and soloist doing it justice– nostalgically imperfect, the way it’s s’posed to be!