In August, my pastor’s 19-year old son, Josiah, went to Heaven after a sudden car accident.

The pain that my pastor and his family felt was almost tangible and unlike anything I’d ever witnessed.  My initial response, along with many others in the congregation, was to mourn… almost as those with no hope, though we “knew” better.  But during that time, the Lord began revealing unshakeable truths to my pastor and his wife about the realities of life on Earth, life in Heaven, and the relationship between the two.

The culmination of that revelation has just been released in the form of a book– Have Heart: Bridging the Gulf Between Heaven and Earth.

I believe that the concepts discussed in this book– very much written as a story depicting the journey that my pastor and his wife have been on for the past 10 months– will be mind-blowing and life-changing.  I URGE you to read it, whether you’re currently coping with the transition of a loved one’s life, or if you ever think you might have to (and you will).

To be clear– I’m not endorsing this book because I love its authors, Pastor Steve and Sarah Berger (though I do, very much so).  Nor am I endorsing it because I want you guys to know how awesome my church is (though it is, very much so).

I’m endorsing it because, in less than a year, God has revolutionized my thinking about our natural lives and our eternal lives through this teaching.  I have been the beneficiary of this Truth, and I’m desperately excited for everyone I know to be exposed to it as well.  There is hope and healing in the pages of this book.

Not a dime of the sale proceeds will ever go into the Bergers’ pockets– it’s all going toward the continued building and support of Josiah’s House, a boys’ orphanage in the Dominican Republic.

Check out the video below and visit http://www.haveheart.net to learn more about the book, more about Heaven and more about this ministry through numerous videos, blogs and resources.  Please, do that for me, folks.  Thanks.

As you know, I typically feature books that are worth reading in the Good Read section of the blog.  But for this particular author, I figured “why not… I may as well just go’n ahead and interview him…”

SIKE!  Are you kidding?!  I got a chance to chat with Kirk Franklin about his new book, The Blueprint (in stores on May 18th), and I wasn’t about to pass that up. 

He needs no introduction, except that I might stress that he’s a cool dude who’s written an incredibly honest and helpful book that I encourage you all to get as soon as it comes out.

Without further delay, here’s my chat with Kirk Franklin…

*     *     *

EJ:  Hey, how’s it going, man?

KF:  I’m doing good, how you doing, man?

EJ:  I’m good!  Thanks for taking a quick minute to chat with me.  I really appreciate it.

KF:  Thank you.

EJ:  I wanna get started by congratulating you on the upcoming release of your new book, The Blueprint.

KF:  Thank you, sir.

EJ:  I got my advance copy, thinking I’d just take a look at a few pages… I read through it in one day.  I mean, it drew me in like a good phone conversation or something.  I just kept wanting to know more, so kudos to you on writing so well.

In The Blueprint, you basically say that a lot of us go through life without referencing the blueprint or the how-to manual on how to best live our lives.  What was the impetus for writing your book?  Why now, and why this concept?

KF:  Well, it’s very obvious to me– just as I look at the fruit that we bear and grow in society– we are not getting a clear picture of what God’s plan is for our lives because we don’t have a clear picture of His Word.

Most people have not really had a chance to be taught the Word or to study the Word in a way that is non-religious, or non-ritualistic.  So, we don’t really have a chance to see His plan for our lives clearly, in light of His true blueprint for our lives.

EJ:  Yeah.

KF:  So, we spend a lot of time trying to figure it out on our own, trying to interpret what we think God says… what I think God is saying, what I feel God says.  And we end up missing a whole lot because we focus on what we feel instead of what He said.  And then, we don’t adjust what we feel to what He’s said.

We spend time in life going around in circles because of our interpretation, or our lack of interpretation.

EJ:  Absolutely.  How long did it take you to write it?

KF:  It took me a year.

EJ:  Wow.

KF:  Yeah, man.

EJ:  What was the process for gathering information and deciding “this is something I’ve gotta talk about, but this is something I’ll save for another book”?

KF:  Well, you know man, a lot of it was just my own life experience.  And it was different sermons that I’ve preached, or discussions that I’ve had, lectures at colleges… and just watching life, itself.  Watching life and marriage, other people’s lives.  I spent a lot of time just watching.

And I saw how disconnected people are in society when it comes to their faith, and how their faith affects their lives.

EJ:   In the book, you give lots of blueprints for different stages of life– whether you’re single, married, parenting, struggling in your faith… it seems that there’s something for everyone.  And you address it all, as you said, through life experiences… when did you begin to conquer life for yourself in these areas and, from there, start to think “man, that worked… I’ve gotta share this with people”?

KF:  Just when I started seeing the fruit of it in my life.  When I started seeing those life lessons– whether being taught by my pastor or other teachers in my life, or just reading– when I started seeing those fruits growing in my own personal life, I started getting excited about it.  I wasn’t just hearing it, but I was actually seeing it work.  And when you see it work, you get excited about it.

EJ:  Most definitely.  I wanna take a moment to chat about some of the specific topics you address in the book and I’m gonna try to do it without giving too much away.

KF:  Okay.

EJ:  At one point in the book, you revisit your interview with Oprah and some of the backlash you received from people who thought you were telling too much of your business.  You said– “It all made me realize how uncomfortable we are with people telling on themselves, revealing painful things.  We’re much more comfortable when we see people get busted for something, because then it’s easier to disconnect.”

You continue to be extremely transparent in this book and in your life– often blatantly so– how important is it for people with platforms to be transparent?

KF:  Well, I just believe that’s the only way people can grow.  When I watch my teachers stand, there’s a part of life that I learn.  When I watch my teachers talk about how they’ve fallen, there’s a part of life that I learn.  So, if I only hear from my teachers how they stand, when I FALL, I don’t know how to.

EJ:  Sure.

KF:  So, as I communicate those moments where I’ve stood strong, but also those areas where I’ve been weak, I provide a blueprint on how to fall and what that looks like, so that it doesn’t look foreign when it happens to you.  Because it’s not IF it happens to you, it’s always when it happens to you.

EJ:  Absolutely, man.

KF:  A lot of times, for example, with me… I spent so much of my life thinking I wasn’t a Christian and that I wasn’t good enough because when I would fall and make mistakes, it was like “ok, something must be wrong with me.”  Because I never had nobody model out that we all fall.

So, I think it’s very important that people can have something to look at, so that when they have those moments of temptation or depression, or struggle and anxieties in life, they can look at something and say “okay, no… this is COMMON because Kirk told me…”

EJ:  Yeah.

KF:  And you know, it’s very sad that we don’t do it more because when you look at Scripture, you’ve got blueprints of it all throughout Scripture.  You’ve got Paul talking about his thorn, or you’ve got blueprints of David with Bathsheba, or blueprints of Jacob getting caught up, you’ve got blueprints of Moses losing his temper, and blueprints of Abraham having Ishmael.

You’ve got blueprints all throughout the Bible of great men that failed so that we could learn what not to do.  But then, here in the 21st century, you never see it.  You never see it ’til they fall.

EJ:  Yeah, and then it’s just written about from the standpoint of “look at what HE did!”

KF:  Yeah!  Yeah.

EJ:  That’s insightful.  Umm… this is gonna sound weird, but I really enjoyed the chapters where you talk about sex. *laughs*

KF:  No, no!  *laughing* It’s not weird because if you are a man or woman trying to live out your faith, sex is something that is one of the hardest things to learn from the church in terms of “how do I apply this?”

EJ:  Absolutely.  And for me– I’ll be married 2 years in July– the chapters where you talked about sex were particularly profound because you opened up in a way that not many people would.  You opened up– and God bless your wife, Tammy, for being transparent along with you, because SHE’s ministering to people through this book.

KF:  Hmmm!

EJ:  But you opened up your bedroom to millions of people, letting everyone in on how your physical intimacy was struggling at one time.

How do you, and even your wife, deal with the fears of being so transparent all the time?  It’s gotta be rewarding, but how do the two of you fight the initial fear of “wait, everyone’s gonna know THIS, now?”

KF:  You know, I don’t really have that problem, man.  For me, it’s so therapeutic.  Talking is very therapeutic for me.  VERY therapeutic.  Of course, you go through certain moments, but for the most part, it has been very much a blessing to get stuff off my chest.  It’s just very healing for me.

EJ:  Do you feel like– because we talked about people not seeing HOW to fall– do you feel like, particularly in the gospel community, there are not enough examples of mentorship among the artists?  Everyone knows that scandals have hit– is there enough seeing one another fall among the artists?

KF:  There’s not enough mentoring across the board, man.  The whole purpose of having grandparents, pastors and those figures in our community is so that we wouldn’t have to have a cycle of mistakes.  It’s supposed to be about “each one, teach one.”  So when we don’t have that, we just continue a cycle of failing because everybody is trying to figure it out on their own.

And it’s so unfortunate, man.

EJ:  Absolutely.  And I’ve found that, in my own circles of accountability, when you have someone being transparent, it just opens the door for others to say “okay, well, that’s me too!”

KF:  Yeah.

EJ:  And that’s where healing is.  But where does that start?

KF:  I hope that transparency becomes contagious.  That as people begin to see how therapeutic it can be, other people begin to say “me, too” and it will be a domino effect.  Now, it may not always be at the level that everyone can see it like it’s prime time news, but hopefully, when we get the chance to look, we can see that people’s lives are becoming affected.

EJ:  I love that.  I’m just about done, but I wanna touch on some of the great idioms you’ve got in this book– the need to “sanctify your sexuality,” that life is not about the “boom boom boom,” and my personal favorite, “embrace the non-sexies.”

KF:  *laughing*  Yeah!

EJ:  I think I need a t-shirt that says that!  Can you briefly tell the readers about the non-sexies?

KF:  There are things that God has put into every one of our lives to develop character.  The biggest thing we’re missing in our society is character development.

EJ:  I hear that.

KF:  You’ve got artists that don’t have essence, you’ve got people that don’t have essence– entertainers, politicians… You can be smart and educated, but if you don’t have character, you’ll fall, you’ll go for anything, you’ll change your morals and values based on how much you’re getting paid or getting slid up under the door.

But when you have character, you’d rather stand for something than fall for anything.  And the way to develop character is to embrace the things that God has put in your life that are NOT the things that will give you the top spot, NOT the things that are always for the applause and for the world to see.  It’s those non-sexy things.

EJ:  I love that, man.

KF:  For example, standing up at the United Negro College Fund and writing a check, well that’s sexy.  That’s gonna be on the news the next day.  Or, you know… being a person who flies down to help the people in Haiti when all the cameras are gonna see it, that’s sexy.

But dealing with your crackhead sister, when she done stole your microwave for the third time?!  And you gotta go down to the holding cell and deal with her crackhead behind, and be committed to her as her big brother?  THAT’s non-sexy.

But that’s something that God has put in your life that you’ve gotta deal with.

EJ:  Wow.

KF:  Or, your child who may be having a hard time sleeping in the bed at night. *chuckles*  And he’s scared and he keeps messing up your love-making nights and you’re only in town for three nights.  But you’ve got to put your child’s fear over your physical needs for a few nights.  That’s non-sexy.

EJ:  *laughs* Yeah, that’s definitely not sexy.

KF:  Those things that have nothing to do with the press, nothing that anybody’s going to clap for or give you awards for… it’s the things, like yesterday…

Flying in town from doing your Hollywood meetings and what not, and your daughter has a track meet an hour and a half away from your house.  And the track meet is supposed to start at 3:00 and you get there, but it doesn’t start until 6:00.  And so, you’re there from 3 to 6, sitting outside and it’s hot.  And you don’t got nowhere else to go because you’re in the middle of the country and you’re sitting there for 3 1/2 hours waiting for the track meet to start… and each one of your child’s heats are like an hour or an hour and a half apart.  So, you sat out there from 3:00 to 10:30.

EJ:  Dude.

KF:  Nobody’s gonna write about that.  That’s not gonna be in no publication, but it’s gonna be on your daughter’s heart.  She will REMEMBER that moment and she’ll never forget it.  But that was a non-sexy moment.

EJ:  Absolutely.  As I was reading about that concept in the book, I thought it’s kinda like “being faithful over a few things…”

KF:  Yeah!  There it is.

EJ:  My pastor here in Franklin, TN said “if you can’t scrub toilets and help in the parking lot when it’s raining, don’t ask to be on the worship team.  Don’t ask to be up here where you can be seen.”  If you can’t serve at the base level…

KF:  That’s right.  And the problem is, it’s human nature to always want to go to the place of being seen.  You want to go from the womb to being seen.  And the problem is that, if you don’t embrace those MIDDLE areas, those non-sexy areas, when you get to the place of being seen, you’re not going to LAST there because you didn’t do the character development.  That’s why you’re in today and gone tomorrow.

EJ:  Wow.  That’s good stuff, man.  Is this the last book?  How much more do you have in you that you didn’t get to say?

KF:  I don’t know, man.  We’ve gotta wait and see because this was such a new process for me.  I’d never done anything like this before, so we’ve gotta see.  It’s like I dumped it all into this book. *laughing*

EJ:  It’s great.  My wife was out while I was looking at it and when she got home, I was like “you have to read this book.”  She took a look at an excerpt and said “I’m reading this today.”

KF:  Oh, wow.

EJ:  I told her “it’s like talking to a good friend who knows you really well– it’s conversational and has these sidebars about fried chicken, and they don’t have anything to do with what he’s talking about…”

KF:  *laughing*

EJ:  “But at the same time, you turn the page and he’s diggin’ all in your heart, like ‘I KNOW you… I KNOW you feel this way… and it’s tacky’.”

KF:  Wow.

EJ:  So, it’s like talking to an accountability partner who knows you and loves you, so he’s able to cover you and show you yourself.  I don’t do a lot of book reviews on the site because a lot of the stuff I see is just… not based on stuff that can be an anchor.

But I’m excited about this book for you because it’s gonna be really helpful for people.

KF:  Wow.  My brother, that is such a great compliment, man.  Thank you.  I’m very humbled by that.  Very humbled by that, sir.  Thank you.

EJ:  No doubt.  My last question, man– when readers turn the last page of The Blueprint and set it down, they’re gonna have that feeling– you know, that reflective moment that you have when you finish a book, like “that was good” or “what the heck does THAT mean?!”

KF:  *laughs*

EJ:  What do you hope people will be thinking in that reflective moment after The Blueprint?  When they close the book, you want them to sit back and say…

KF:  I hope and pray that everybody will say everything that you just said.

That’s my prayer.  That everybody will say everything the way you said it– talking to a good friend, talking to somebody who was raw and real with you, but was very loving… someone who will make you laugh and cry and think at the same time.

It was almost like Kirk came over to the crib and just kicked it with you.

EJ:  Yep!

KF:  Y’all talked about sex, y’all talked about parenting, about being a man, about religion… talked about hopes and dreams.  You know, “Kirk just left the crib and we had a good time.”

EJ:  Absolutely.  And I believe they will.  From one man to another– thank you for this book.  And, lemme say, it’s something for me to read over and over again.  It’s not like “I read it, so I’ve got it down.”  It’s more of a reference book to me.

KF:  Wow.

EJ:  Yeah, man.  It’s a way to check-in as I go.  So, it’s really awesome.

KF:  Praise God.  Praise God.  Thank you, brother.

EJ:  No, thank you for taking a moment to chat with me.  I know you’re busy, so I appreciate you for spending time with me.

KF:  Thank you, man.

EJ:  My pleasure.  Take care.

KF:  Okay.  Bye.

*     *     *

BAM!  Don’t you wanna read this book?!

I’m serious– it really drew me in and held my attention for hours.  It’s powerful… and I loved it.

It was a joy chatting with Kirk– he’s passionate about what he’s written, and he KNOWS what he’s talking about.  He didn’t just come up with a bunch of quotes for a book or an interview… he lives it and it just kinda pours out of him.

Anyway, tell me what you think of our talk.  Does the interview make you more interested in the book?  Who’s picking it up on May 18th?

Talk to me!

About a year ago, I learned of an upcoming book by Milan Ford, titled 83 Things I Wish The Black Church Would Stop Doing.  The title, alone, stood out to me and I was intrigued to read it.  When I researched it a bit more, I learned that, in his book, Ford would discuss whether many traditions of the “black church” are partly responsible for what he perceives is a growing apathy towards faith and religion in today’s generation.

Cut to me, months later, and I’d completely forgotten about the book.  But a GospelPundit reader recently emailed me and asked if I’d heard of it or read it, as she was just about to finish it.  I told her that I’d intended to read it and to let me know how it was.

Her “response” was so well-written and thoughtful that I decided “why not just use this as her review for the site?!”

So, ladies and gents, I present to you Melissa Tyler Wells.  Melissa hails from New Orleans, LA and is a graduate of Louisiana State University.  She is a fundraiser, writer and singer.  Melissa is currently working on a book, herself, focused on empowering young girls.  She is a member of the praise team at Household of Faith Family Worship Church International in Harvey, LA.

Here’s what Melissa’s got to say about the book:

*     *     *

I have finished the book.  I laughed, I cried, I turned my face up into a scowl and a big Kool-Aid smile.  I think a lot of what Milan observed highlights the well-known fact that the church is resistant to change and, therefore, is losing influence on an ever-changing world.  I like that he did not hold his tongue, using examples and citing traditions that would probably offend many well-known gospel artists, multi-church fellowships and prominent Pastors tied to today’s black church.

I wish he would have expounded on the various traditions the way that he did with Watch Night Services and a couple others, because the fact is that traditions, no matter how outdated, began with a relevant need.  I think if you are going to expose unnecessary tradition and encourage people to change, you need to do more to break down why they are no longer necessary.
 
That being said, the “black church” is no different from a lot of other religious institutions that cling to tradition.  Take a look at the Catholic Church.  It is very bogged down in traditions its own members don’t understand.  Over time that church has seen huge schisms, loss of members, relevance and ability to affect change, because it refused to change and leave old traditions where they belong.  I am not saying that we should do what the world does and I know that we must be different and set standards, but a lot of that simply has nothing to do with our traditions.

To me, the whole book points to the fact that the Word says, he who wins souls is wise.  If we would spend more time on that and less time making sure you held up your finger while exiting the sanctuary during service or covered your skirt with a cloth while seated or always wore hose with your skirt (things he did not mention), then maybe we could do more to carry out our mission as the body of Christ.
 
As we begin to look back at the short history of the “black church” in America, perhaps this book will inspire and mark a historic shift in the way we “do church” (I could not resist).  I was watching Ever Increasing Faith Ministries and the Pastor was saying he believed that Christ would not come back until his church (body) was unified, and I think he may be on to something.  Until we are the church and not just the “black church” we will miss the mark.  This book is definitely food for thought and should be required reading for all leaders in ministry in any “black church.”

*     *     *

And there you have it, folks.  To learn more about Milan Ford’s 83 Things I Wish The Black Church Would Stop Doing and/or to buy it, you can visit his website by clicking here.

I think it sounds like a cool book and I’m definitely (once again) inclined to check it out.  Thanks for the write-up, Melissa!

Let me (and Melissa) know what you think of the review!

I LOOOVED this interview and I think y’all are gonna really enjoy it, too.  I’m chatting with Deborah Smith Pollard (aka Dr. Deb) about her book, When The Church Becomes Your Party, which discusses the changing trends in gospel music and the new expressions of the traditional Gospel message.

Let me set things up real quick for you, so you’ll know exactly why you need to lean in CLOSELY for this interview!  She holds a Ph.D. in American Studies, she’s an Associate Professor at the University of Michigan-Dearborn, she has done EXTENSIVE research and writing in African-American literature and the gospel music industry.  She’s a concert producer, lecturer, gospel columnist… AND she’s a Stellar Award-winning gospel announcer on Detroit’s FM 98, where she’s hosted “Strong Inspirations” on Sunday mornings for nearly 15 years!

We had waaaaay more fun on our phone conversation than I could have expected (and talked about waaay more than I could even print!).  She is a true treasure to the gospel music community.

Y’all, FOR REAL, buy this book and learn what her research has uncovered– you’ll be amazed.  Here’s Deborah Smith Pollard…

*     *     *

EJ:  Hi!  First, let me thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.

DSP:  Well, thank you for wanting to talk to me.

EJ:  Oh, absolutely.  A friend emailed me about the book a few months ago and I thought “I want to read this and I want to talk to her for GospelPundit.com,” so I really appreciate you for taking the time to do it.

I also need to take a quick minute to say THANK YOU for mentioning GospelPundit on your radio show the other week.  You had listeners weighing-in on a topic I started, regarding Mary Mary’s upcoming video and the cameo appearances by mainstream artists.  As you saw, we had A LOT of comments—some for it, some against it– at GospelPundit.com.  How did people respond in Detroit?

DSP:  The ones who called in and sent me text messages, they said that there are a lot of different ways to reach people and Mary Mary seems to want to go outside of the church walls.  And if they can grab the attention of the audience by putting before them some of the popular, urban artists, as long as Mary Mary’s message isn’t being compromised, people felt that was fine.

EJ:  Yeah, I hear that.  And, it’s not a new debate at all, nor will it be the last, but it’s great to hear the various viewpoints on it.

Now, please tell me about this incredible and TIMELY book that you’ve written—When The Church Becomes Your Party.  I’ve spoken with a few people in the industry and they’re raving about it.  What’s the basic theme of your book?

DSP:  The basic theme is that the new forms of gospel music, and the new forms of expressing gospel music, may seem disconcerting initially, but if you just step back and listen to the testimonies, or listen to the lyrics, you’ll see that the intention and the focus of those artists (and those who attend their concerts) tends to be the same as it’s always been.  There’s the traditional message, but it’s wrapped for a new generation.

EJ:  That’s awesome.  So, it’s nothing new or something we need to be afraid of?

DSP:  Right.  Don’t be “scurrrrred.”  *laughs*

EJ:  *laughing*  Right!

DSP:  For example, in the last chapter, “Preachers In Disguise: Bringing The Holy to Hip-Hop,” I talk about the testimonies of people like Cross Movement and other artists like Kiwi (here in Detroit) or Corey Red… and I look at the things that they’ve said on record– why they do what they do.  And then I print out a number of lyrics, either from their albums or you can find them online.  And when you look at them, you can see why, even if it’s not your beat or your sound, it’s still a message worth supporting.

Certainly, I’m not one who embraces all kinds of rap.  I love music, but if there is music that denegrades women, etcetera, that’s different.  But that’s not what’s going on here with Christian rap and Holy Hip-Hop.  I tell people: “get past the Timbs, get past the jeans”… *laughs*

EJ:  I love that!

By the way, I’m loving the titles of these chapters—I think my favorite is “Muscle T-Shirts, Tight Jeans and Cleavage- (W)rapping the Gospel for a New Generation”.  What in the world is THAT about?

DSP:  That’s actually my favorite title!  One of the things that I did was note that it’s not just about women.  We talk a lot about women, and what they’re wearing, but I interviewed some men who said “you know, I have to watch what I wear when I perform,” and I thought “really?”

EJ:  Not everyone considers that.

DSP:  Right, but I thought, “well, why not?”  Because if men can be swayed by what women have on, why wouldn’t women be swayed by what men have on?  I look at the fact that when Kirk Franklin first came out, people were allegedly throwing their door keys, undergarments on stage…

EJ:  No! *laughing*

DSP:  So I go all the way back to the history of dress in the church/gospel community.  Well, we have to go all the way back to the early church fathers, who wanted women in nothing clingy, had to cover their ankles (because ankles were too much of a turn on), they had to wear veils… then, later, in the Black church, that was the one place where people really COULD dress up.  Coming out of slavery, we could be who we really were.

So, what happens is that we’re a more casual culture, but we also have young-thinking artists who say “I don’t want the audience to feel like we’re in this completely different world from them, that we’re unapproachable.”

Even Fred Hammond, four or five years ago, as we were doing an interview on my program, he told everyone to go home before his concert and change their clothes so that people can see that we’re approachable.  So, I wanted to put the muscle t-shirts and the jeans and the cleavage, so we know that it’s across the board– things are changing.

EJ:  Wow.  That’s awesome because we don’t usually think of it from both sides.

DSP:  Right.  So, I address: what does Trin-I-Tee have on, what does Mary Mary have on, but also, what does Kirk have on, what does Donnie have on?

And I talk about the changing silhouettes, as well.  Everybody isn’t skinny, but our “A-list” artists, as a rule, especially when we talk about the women– Vickie, Dorinda, Yolanda, Mary Mary… they are smaller overall than their key demographic.  Again, not a good thing or a bad thing, but an observation.

EJ:  This is so fascinating to me!

DSP:  And, EJ, most importantly, they’re SMALLER THAN the full-figured Mahalia Jackson who, again, was building upon the popularity of the female blues singers of the time.  Full-figured was fabulous back then.  So, I think that part of the reason that these artists have been able to crossover is because they are glamorous.  I let people decide for themselves whether it’s good or bad, but these are our artists today.

And when I go to a concert, I gotta tell you, EJ, I’ve got two hats on.  I want to be there to enjoy it… *laughs*

EJ:  *laughing*  But you still wanna research!

DSP:  *laughs* Right!  I’m takin’ little pictures of what’s going on!  If I see a tube top on someone in the audience, I’m taking note.  I’m looking on stage and, if there’s cleavage or pants that are more fitted, I’m looking to see if the audience is murmuring, or what.  How are they processing it?

EJ:  Right.

DSP:  At one point, we had Vickie Winans, CeCe Winans, Helen Baylor and Dottie Peoples at a concert.  And Dottie Peoples was the only one who wore a dress.  And I talked to my mentor in gospel radio, and she had some pretty strong words to say about everyone wearing pants.  She said “if they had really been set FREE, they wouldn’t have those pants on.”  Then, I called Vickie Winans, told her how much we enjoyed her and simply asked when she started feeling comfortable wearing pants.  And she said “well, I didn’t start wearing pants until I was 30.  But I’ve been shown a FREER way.”

EJ:  WOW!  Night and day.

DSP:  *laughing* And I thought, here are two women who love God and love gospel music– one says “if they had been set free, they wouldn’t have pants on”; the other says “I’ve been shown a freer way.”  And Vickie said that she never wears them in the sanctuary and she always checks to see where she’s going.  But, I went to full-research mode to see how people have responded to the things they see on stage.  That’s my favorite chapter title, too!

EJ:  That’s such an interesting concept to me.  While I have you, let me ask you a quick philosophical question.  Do you think that the evolution of gospel music is inevitable?  And let me explain why I ask:  In his day, Thomas A. Dorsey was considered “radical” for throwing blues-infused chords into sacred music.

DSP:  Absolutely.

EJ:  And now, we call it “traditional gospel.”  Same thing with Edwin Hawkins, for example.  Even Kirk Franklin & God’s Property, when they did “Stomp” just over 10 years ago, were practically ostracized for having gone too far.  Now, we’ve got Tye Tribbett & G.A. doing backflips and splits on stage, and the gospel community now considers THAT “the norm.”  So, isn’t change bound to happen in gospel music?

DSP:  Absolutely.  I teach a class in gospel music and, one of the things that I tell the students is that “church people don’t live in the church.”  You know?  They live in the greater community.  And the Black community, which is so dynamic, we create chords, we create instruments, we utilize things in new ways… I remember Pastor [Marvin] Winans saying “there is no ‘Gospel B flat chord’… it’s just B flat.”

EJ:  Right!

DSP:  So, he talked to my class about a commercial, I think it was for a paper towel, that worked its way into a gospel song.  Twinkie Clark talked about loving Stevie Wonder her whole life, heard “Master Blaster” and decided “nobody’s doing any reggae in gospel,” and this is how ”You Brought The Sunshine” came about.

EJ:  WOWWWWWWW.

DSP:  People say “church people shouldn’t be mixing it,” but we are PEOPLE and just because somebody has created a “gangster” style of rap doesn’t mean that the whole speaking tradition isn’t ours.  PREACHING is OURS.  It’s our highest form of spoken word.  And we use it in service already– the preacher gets going and the organist starts winding up to support his spoken word… it’s the same thing as rap, except they’ve added a drum to it or whatever else.

EJ:  You’re blowin’ my mind!!! *laughs*

DSP:  *laughing*  So, whatever comes next is inevitably going to bring about changes in church music as well.  Some people will embrace it, some people will say it’s Satan’s music, and all I say is “God, let me be around so I can write about it!” *laughs*

EJ:  That’s incredible.

DSP:  I have gone to these services, EJ, and I call them services.  And I might be the only “grown person” there– the last one I went to featured Lecrae and The Ambassador.  It was great… and you KNOW they’re going to do an altar call.  You KNOW they’re gonna pray over those young people and challenge them about their walk in Christ.

Now, it’s not for everybody, it’s not even for all young people because some people prefer something more traditional.  But for those who were THERE– young, old, in-between– they were blessed by the ministry, they knew the Word was going forth and it was just great to be a part of it!

So, that’s where we are NOW, something new is coming around the corner.  And I just say that if you’re not going to embrace it, could you please maybe step aside…

EJ:  Wow.  Basically. *laughs*

DSP:  And, wait a minute… could you PRAY that God gets the glory?  That all those who are involved in whatever is new will give GOD the glory in what they’re doing.  And that they won’t be pulled down by some who, without even paying attention to lyrics, or without even knowing the history, would judge it.

EJ:  It’s funny, I often say that a lot of us Christians, we would’ve stopped the crucifixion if we could’ve.

DSP:  *laughing*

EJ:  *laughs* Because we get so stuck on making sure that we’re championing the cause for what is “right” and we have such a strong opinion about how things “have to” go, but sometimes… we just don’t know what the Lord is going to do or allow to bring about HIS plans.  Y’know?

DSP:  Mmm-hmm.

EJ:  And, on the Mary Mary post we were talking about, somebody came on and said “well, I came to Christ through Mary Mary and Kirk Franklin.”  So, if people wanna knock them for being too progressive or too out-the-box, that’s fine… but God is using them to win souls to Jesus.

You know, one of my students said that “I like Trin-I-Tee 5:7 because they showed me that I can look cute and love Jesus, too.”  And maybe, for someone else, that’s not their style, but there are tons of people you can look to if that’s not your style, and you don’t have to tear them down.

EJ:  So true.  You’ve done a lot of research!

DSP:  Well, I love how the book finally together and I’m so pleased that people have said so many kind things about it.  As Pastor Winans says, “even if you don’t agree with the conclusion, you have to respect the research.”

EJ:  Absolutely, because at the end of the day, we didn’t do the research, you did.  And what you found is what’s out there.

Now, how can people get their HANDS on the book?

DSP:  My own website, which will probably be www.deborahsmithpollard.com, will be launched soon.  But in the meantime, people can go to my MySpace page for more info [click here for that], or to my publisher’s page at Wayne State University Press [click here for that].

EJ:  Perfect.  Well, thank you SO much for chatting with me.

DSP:  I thank YOU for the opportunity.  And continued success with the site!

EJ:  Thanks.  We’ll be in touch!

DSP:  Okay.

EJ:  Bye!

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Thoughts???  Anybody already read the book?  Anybody gonna hurry up and GET IT?!